Marketing Magic and the New Meaning of Engagement

Cheryl Brown

In this week's episode of The Purposeful Banker, Dallas Wells welcomes Q2 CMO Carlos Carvajal for a discussion about how marketing in banking has evolved and how to make more meaningful, profitable connections with customers.

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Transcript

Dallas Wells

Hello and welcome to The Purposeful Banker, the leading commercial banking podcast brought to you by Q2, where we discuss the big topics on the minds of today's best bankers. I'm Dallas Wells. Welcome to the show.

For today's episode, we've invited Q2's chief marketing officer, Carlos Carvajal, to share the mic. Carlos, I don't think we've had you on the show before, so welcome. Good to have you.

Carlos Carvajal

Great to be here, Dallas. It's an honor to be on the podcast. Thank you for having me.

Dallas Wells

Yeah, you bet. So Carlos, you joined right in the heart of COVID, in December of 2020, I believe? So since you're a first-timer, do you mind giving us a little bit about where you came from and kind of how you landed at Q2?

Carlos Carvajal

Yeah, so where I came from, so I have a pretty diverse background, but haven't always been in banking, but I've been in technology for over, oh my lord, almost 30 years at this point. And I'd say for the last 20 to 25 years, been very focused on what I would call technology related to the customer experience, going all the way back 20 years to personalization for the web and web experience, customer portals, portal technology, if you remember that back in the day.

So some things actually come back full cycle, right? A company called Vignette here in Austin back in 2000, delivering the right content to the right person at the right time. And I still hear that phrase, which is crazy to me, but it makes sense. And then shifted over time into actually, interestingly enough, AI, machine learning and more targeting technology, which is more around predictive recommendations within the ecommerce space, but it was still targeting-oriented.

One of the things I learned is that you can learn from other industries. There are best practices that you can actually pick up from retail and actually apply it even in banking, as an example. And then ended up in a low-code mobile application development company that eventually pivoted more into banking, digital banking. And that's how I heard about Q2 and, eventually, very grateful to end up here, throughout that journey. So been here now, as you mentioned, a little over three and a half years at this point.

Dallas Wells

Well, yeah, it's been a whirlwind of three and a half years, and I think maybe more timely, a whirlwind of the last several weeks. So your team's fresh off of Financial Brand and our customer conference CONNECT, so we've had lots of time out in front of customers and prospects and bankers in general.
And then your team has also launched a couple of things for Q2. We'll touch on a couple of those as well, but before we get into that, I would say, what's the sentiment that you and your team have heard over the last several weeks, just being at a couple of the big industry events, what are you hearing?

Carlos Carvajal

Yeah, as far as going back to Financial Brand and even shortly before that, when you look at Nacha, it's kind of interesting to get different perspectives when you're talking about a payments conference, much more focused on the treasury and the cash management side versus going to Financial Brand, which leans a little bit more into marketing and customer experience. And then with our recent CONNECT conference, you kind of get a blend of everything at that point, talking to our clients.

I mean frankly, I think the fundamentals as far as what people are looking for don't really change that much. They're looking at: How do I get a competitive advantage, compete and win, those kinds of things come up. How do I drive a better customer experience or a member experience? How do you build stronger relationships over time?

What's different in many cases, there is some difference in segmentation that comes back to targeting. There's a lot more discussions around Gen Z. and I looked at recent data from our CONNECT conference and it was interesting to see that the Gen Z session was actually one of the most attended, so it's just telling me people are thinking through this.

Dallas Wells

OK, interesting.

Carlos Carvajal

Yeah, it was like people are really trying to figure this out. So what they're trying to do, I don't think it's changed dramatically, they are looking at different dynamics around segments, population segments and things like that. But I think it's more around the technology side; how can I serve my customers better? How can I gain a competitive advantage? How can I do that using AI, using data, using more targeted experiences, and all those types of things come into play as well.

And that's kind of what I'm hearing, is how do I use all of the latest and greatest as well as best practices to solve things around deposit growth, competitive edge, better experiences, et cetera, and kind of bringing those two things together.

Dallas Wells

Yeah, the industry's so cyclical that, to me, when you ask about sentiment, it's either we're in the midst of one of those “the sky is falling” times, where it's doomsday and everybody's kind of in hunker down mode, or we're in what feels more like the boom times. And for all the angst about interest rates and inflation and commercial real estate, et cetera, et cetera, this feels more like the latter. It feels like good times, and what that translates to is I think what you're describing, which is forward-looking people thinking about strategic, what's around the corner, how do we kind of maintain our edge and how do we grow, rather than how do we hunker down and survive?

So those are always, I think, the fun times when folks are looking for what's next and thinking about how to solve some of those challenges.

Carlos Carvajal

I agree. I think there's a balance in there, and I think it varies based on the financial institution, but they are looking at things like efficiency, as you know better than I do, they are looking at productivity and they are looking—interestingly enough, I mentioned Gen Z was one of the top sessions—I think looking at enhancing back-office productivity and efficiency was actually, I think, top two, not top three. So there is a balance in there. But to your point, it's still from a point of optimism, not fear and concern.

Dallas Wells

One of the really intriguing things as we were preparing for some of those sessions is you've got this industry that is, if you look at assets within the industry walls, again, a lot of this is, there's lots of competition from outside the banking and credit union industry, but from within the industry, the assets there have gone up by 2.6 to 3 times in the last couple of decades, somewhere in that range. And there's actually fewer employees in the financial institutions.

So you've got this smaller employee base serving this much larger customer base, this much larger audience. And I think that's where you get a lot of this, not just efficiency, but how do we deploy technology to get some scale around what's always been a relationship and a people business. So you mentioned there a couple of times, the ideas of targeting, and I think that translates well to one of the things we wanted to talk about today.

So a couple of years ago, we launched what we call Q2 Catalyst, which is our end-to-end set of solutions for commercial customers, so commercial account holders and the suite of things that would solve all of their various needs.

And so over the last several weeks we've launched the consumer version of that, which we call Q2 Engage, so it's a suite of consumer banking solutions. And I think a big part of it is that idea of targeting and personalization and kind of just the right solution for a particular audience.

I think there's two angles that are really interesting. Let's talk about the concept of Q2 Engage itself, and I also want to talk about how and why we've landed there, why we think it's important. But let's start with just what it is.

Carlos Carvajal

Yeah, so Q2 Engage, I mean literally what it is, it's our suite of consumer banking solutions that also can help with microbusiness and other small business use cases, as well. But I want to kind of up level that a little bit, and I'll compare it to Catalyst. Where Catalyst was about how do we help financial institutions build profitable relationships, with Engage, the feedback from what we're hearing is not only do we need to grow deposits, for example, but how do we actually build on that and how do we actually build stronger relationships?

So the point around Engage is more around how do you acquire new relationships, and then build on those and actually grow and strengthen that relationship over a long period of time. And we know that there's a lot of competition out there and everything else, so how do you be relevant? How do you serve, how do you gain a competitive advantage? Back to all those points, and that was really at the heart of Q2 Engage, is let's start with purpose. It's really around helping financial institutions, not just from a technology, but also from a framework and strategy point of view, ways of thinking about what is the best way to actually acquire and build stronger relationships over time. And I'm happy to dive into the nitty-gritty.

Dallas Wells

Yeah, I think there may be an interesting marketer perspective that you can bring here. So I think if I look back to my earlier days in the banking business, marketing was all about just getting new customers in the door and once you got them, you kind of had them, because switching was a pain and it's like you had a place where you had your loans and you had a place where you had your checking account. And that's not the way modern banking works for consumers. It's very scattered. You may have dozens of relationships and tiny accounts, and you have a Venmo account and a PayPal account and five or six different bank accounts, and you can shop for rates and it's so easy to be flexible.

So it feels like the marketing shift is, kind of as you described it, winning a new customer is still absolutely critical and important, but that's really just the first step. And you may only win the kind of first baby step into that where yeah, they'll open an account and they'll put 200 bucks in there, but you really have to kind of earn the rest of that relationship over time. And so talk about maybe the difference in marketing perspective there of brand new, versus expanding an existing relationship, and what do those different motions look like?

Carlos Carvajal

What I'll say, and this is part of the strategy and the framework part that we looked at with Engage from talking to our customers, we got feedback from a lot of different institutions and other influencers as well. But it has to do with really thinking about the relationship, and I want to just take it out of the technology just for a second, just from a marketing term. If you really think about just any relationship out there, what you really have to do, what do they say? Is be a good listener. Listen, I'm thinking about my wife, she'd probably say, "You don't listen really well." I'm going to move off of that now.

But no, in all seriousness, when you think about it, it's like how do you serve somebody and how do you serve a need? And if it's somebody that you just met, it may be like you're just trying to understand them as best as you can and you may make certain assumptions. But in the digital world, it's about data, and it's about how do I actually use that data and some knowledge that I have about that individual so that I can serve them better? So how do I get to know them and just based on some early data, maybe some just demographic data, things like that, that we can start making some assumptions and then deliver more of a tailored experience for them. Not a tailored ad. Not like I'm just trying to pitch them products, but actually things that may be helpful based on their situation.

So that's kind of the framework that we're putting in place, first of all, think about knowing them. Not just what do I want to pitch them. It's more around how do I use data to know them and really understand them and understand the relationship. Once you get that better feel using data and you can apply AI and other things in there, then it's a question of what's the next best thing that I can actually serve in honor of that relationship, to actually meet their needs? Because when you think about serving someone, when are the moments that matter most? I'm trying to buy a house. I'm trying to buy a car. I just had a kid. Maybe I have a hardship, maybe I just lost my job. It's those life moments that really drive an incredible emotional reaction, like, "Yes, they understand me, they get me, they're helping me."

And ultimately that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to strengthen somebody's financial position, and that's equally true for small business owners. They have situations that they go through, and understanding what they're doing and how do you help serve their needs while they're trying to build out this business.

That's kind of at the heart of what we're talking about. I'd say the difference between acquiring new customers and existing is you may not have any data or hardly any data other than demographics and some basic things up front. Make it as simple as possible for them to become a customer and remove that friction to get them on board.

And then, like I said, it's like life, it's like a virtuous cycle. If you serve somebody's needs, you've earned the right to learn a little bit more about them. The more you've learned about them, then you can provide better service. The better service you provide, then they're actually going to give you that opportunity to learn more, and then you just continue to build on that.

And that's kind of this “Know, Serve, and Grow” loop that we talk about as part of Engage. And frankly, whether you use Q2 or not, just having a different way to think how do you approach these relationships and serve them over time.

Dallas Wells

Yeah, I think an important aspect of this that you touched on a little there is the expectations from consumers have changed so much. So it can come off as pretty tone-deaf in modern times to be offering the wrong kind of product to me. I'm thinking back to, in my younger days and early in the career, and just dead broke all the time—have $12 to my name. Sending me the CD specials with a $5,000 minimum, that's not all that helpful to me. And maybe 20 years ago, eh, they just blast those out. I think a modern consumer now would be like, do you know me at all, right?

Carlos Carvajal

Right.

Dallas Wells

Am I at the right place? If that's what you're offering, instead of like, "Hey, maybe skip a payment on your car loan" might be the more appropriate next-best product.

Carlos Carvajal

Exactly.

Dallas Wells

Those are, frankly, things that are relatively low-hanging fruit logically. They make perfect logical sense, but it does take some basic infrastructure to be able to make that happen. And so that's really, I think, what this is, is the tooling to think about what's the right next … when we say tailored experience, it is sometimes the next best product, but it's also what's the right combination of things that should be front and center for this particular consumer? And so things like have you set up your direct deposit? Do you have your e-statements turned on? So how do we get you within the fold here to be a proper, full-blown customer of the institution?

And every step of the way, we're learning a little more, and I think that's what the expectation is and that's what personalization and that's what relationship means in a digital world, is you kind of see what's going on with me and you respond to that instead of being totally blind to it. Where it almost feels like in the modern world that's like willfully blind, if you're not paying attention to those signals.

Carlos Carvajal

Yeah, I could not agree more. And I think really important in what you just said, you've got to be careful not to think about it as products, like in personalizing products and offers. And that's where the fintech ecosystem also comes into play because there is ... I don't want to call it just fintech, but just all the technology that's out there that could serve a need around financial literacy, financial wellness, it could be around other things based on where people are at, it could be around charitable giving. If someone actually is, like that's something they want to get more into and look at opportunities, it could be in so many different areas. And just understanding those signals and understanding the data so that you know when to serve those things up and when to tailor the experience, I think is key.

Dallas Wells

So one of the other interesting things, we typically talk commercial banking here, of course all commercial customers are also consumer customers on the other end somewhere, so I think everyone would understand that. But I think one of the really interesting aspects we've seen as we've kind of gone down this path of Q2 Catalyst and Q2 Engage, is right smack in the middle, there's a lot of overlap there where you've got some microbusinesses to small businesses, some of those are side hustles, but it's very much a kind of in-between universe. And that's a big, and I think growing segment. You talked about Gen Z there, a meaningful part of that Gen Z demographic is multiple different gigs, a little less of the corporate nine to five and a little more of piecing together several different things that start to look like in some cases, real small business accounts. So talk a little bit about, do institutions have to pick a path between commercial and consumer, or is there room in that gray area for them to operate comfortably and serve those customers well, too?

Carlos Carvajal

There's absolutely room. I think it's actually even more so expected, there's an incredible opportunity. So looking at consumer, looking at commercial, I will say that the small business side of things, whether it's micro or small business, has been such a hot topic with our customers. We actually, for the first time, we dedicated a track to nothing but small business banking, like use cases, best practices, et cetera, at CONNECT. And then if you carry it into the targeted experience, that's an area where you can actually segment based on audience profiles. So different verticals or segments that you're thinking about where you want to deliver a tailored experience.

Or it could be, to your point, if it's a microbusiness, and I like your example around Gen Zs that are coming up are thinking more about these type of, I don't know if you love or hate the phrase, but solopreneurs, I can barely say it. I just think the experience that you serve them is going to be very different than someone that may be much later as far as their financial management, where they're at in life and everything else. There's no way one size is going to fit all.

Dallas Wells

One other aspect that we've paid attention to with Q2 Engage and with some of the UI type decisions that we're making there, and this struck me just as we started talking about Gen Z, is the massive move toward mobile. That's not a news flash that mobile is important, but it's become, frankly, pretty staggering as we dig into our data on who is accessing what things from where. Folks would use mobile to check balances on the go, but kind of like, hey, if I'm going to get on there and pay bills and transfer money around, I do that from the desktop. And more and more of that activity is shifting toward mobile.

And so part of Engage and designing those experiences is a rethinking of that, a little bit of: We've got to make that mobile experience a little more deep, a little more technical. So again, from the marketing angle, for banks to understand how to reach their customer base, not just digitally but on their mobile, is there nuance to that? Are there different things that we have to think about and consider in kind of reaching that audience?

Carlos Carvajal

Yeah, I mean that's a great point. On the mobile side, I think a lot of it has to do with the experience and simplifying the experience. You have to be careful as far as, I don't know how to phrase it other than overstuffing or trying to put in too much. There is a big difference between mobile and desktop, and there are studies that show sometimes less is more.

That then drives priority of using the data, really understanding the person and how do I put the things that really matter to them the most at that moment in time as far as what they're doing. And I think it puts even greater priority around mobile and just the simplicity of those experiences. And I think given some of the competition out there, they are doing that really well. They are putting a lot of focus on that mobile experience and lower friction side of things and being extremely relevant. So I think that's an area we can help with, as well, based on the changes that you talked about, too.

Dallas Wells

So shifting gears a little bit, and this is one that I'm always curious about, because I feel like it's a struggle for so many banks and credit unions. Again, you've just spent a lot of time with our customers over the last several weeks. I know that we have an executive sponsor program here at Q2 where you're a direct contact for a lot of our customers. And so I think what that ends up with is you end up talking sometimes to bank and credit union marketing teams. So I'm just curious, I still see when I occasionally will flip through a local newspaper, I see the same marketing tactics so many times from a lot of the local institutions. It's still like 11 month CD special, 5.15%, and it's like the exact same stock photography and everything that's been there since 1987. Do you feel like the industry is keeping pace with the marketing world in general? Is this something that there's a struggle with?

Carlos Carvajal

It depends ... let me be thoughtful in how I answer this, but no, in all seriousness, I think it depends. I think in general, I think there's progress in that direction, but candidly, I think it depends on the size of the financial institution. So in some cases we're seeing some of the smaller, let's say community banks or credit unions are not as far along as you'd expect ... not as you'd expect, but as some of the other institutions that are out there that have a little bit more scale, more investment, those kinds of things.

The thing with marketing that's different now, that was different than five years ago and very different than 20 years ago, is just the speed and the pace. What changes in the industry as far as digital marketing, the media side, the targeting side, the data side, and now you've got AI coming in, and I don't know if this is going to stay, but third-party data sets where, in theory, you can buy data around people that are looking for a mortgage and all this other kind of stuff.

So it's just always changing really quick. So trying to keep up with everything can be really hard. And then there's an issue of scale as far as just size of teams. I mean if you have less than five people on your team, you can kind of see all these things and go, that's great, but I got to do this first, and then I'm going to get to some of these other things.

So I do think technology is a great equalizer, and I think that's part of our mission is to actually help with that. And part of the reason why I'm really excited about Engage is how do we make it easier for a smaller community bank or FI to be able to use data to be able to do targeting? And that's one thing I was going to bring up earlier: Part of what we look at is not only what kind of experience can you deliver; is it dynamic? Can you make it personal, et cetera. But the other part of it is: How hard is it to do that? Can you make it easier to create that experience? Can you make it easier to actually manage that experience?

And we put a lot of thought into that as well because we do want to help everyone regardless of size, be able to keep up and compete, whether it's these mobile experiences that are highly tailored, whether the overall experience completely, whether it's how do you actually identify who are the right people to target, how do you build out those traits and the segments for targeting end-to-end? So we're putting a lot of focus on making it easier to drive these outcomes, and wrapping that with something that we got a lot of good feedback on is best practices. Even going beyond the technology, just advising our customers with: This is what we're seeing time and time again, kind of doss and don'ts, and that has been incredibly popular is just best practices on how to do these things.

Dallas Wells

What's been interesting as I've been a part of some of these early conversations with some of our financial institutions that are just making this leap around tailoring different sorts of experiences for different audiences. When we asked them just at the beginning, "OK, well what audiences do you want to show what?" It was sort of a deer in the headlights look, and to your point, we haven't had either the tooling or the staff or the magical combination of those things to be able to contemplate this before, so I don't know, what should we do? And so what's been interesting is it feels like we kind of have to start with one or the other …

Carlos Carvajal

Yes.

Dallas Wells

… of what's the outcome you're looking for and then what's the audience most likely to get you there? Or maybe flip it the other way, and with some of them, what's been interesting is we're like, OK, what if we paired these traits of customers who have been with you for at least this long and have balances of at least this and have direct deposit. We kind of stack together a set of traits and we're like, OK, what's the right next thing for an audience that looks like this?

And they'll know the obvious answer to that, but you kind of have to start with that shaping, almost some hypotheticals. So we've started thinking about this a little bit, almost in terms of playbooks or starter packs, but any advice for financial institutions out there, of when you have that just blank screen blanking cursor, where do you start? What are some good fishing grounds to just get started?

Carlos Carvajal

I think there are just a couple of things as far as advice. One is what you just said, which is start with the end in mind. What's a problem you'd like to solve? Where do you think there's the greatest opportunity? Do you have insights into that? One of the challenges I've seen with data in the past, and this goes prior to Q2 even, it can be endless, right? It's like there's so much data and there's so many opportunities, to your point, where do I start? But if you ask some questions, it's like, what would we like to do? What do we think would actually make an impact? And then work it back from there. And then it can tie into your mission, it can tie into your purpose, it can tie into your business strategy. So what is your strategy? And then orient around that.

I'll give an example, and this came up actually at CONNECT last year, and then the customer presented again this year and it was amazing. But for one of our credit union customers, just understanding that they work with a lot of members that have lower income, a lot of financial hardships. And by looking at the data, once again back to knowing their members and understanding them, they noticed a pattern that there was a segment or a group that were being, frankly, taken advantage of from predatory lenders. So for them it was like how can we offer them alternative products with better rates, reasonable rates given that segment, and then how do we target them and then how do we go after them and how do we actually get them to convert?

And that to me is great because it tied into their mission that they're really trying to help this member base that are having financial hardships. They looked at their data and identified who they thought was going through this pattern. They came up with targeted offerings and services and then rolled it out and had huge success, which had an uptick as far as their business goals. But more importantly, it made a difference in somebody's life.

And I think thinking about it strategically, what are some things that could make a big difference? And then if you just take it back from there, another example customer is they went out and they looked at their retail data set and they realized, "Wow, a lot of these retail users, probably are microbusinesses or small businesses, so how can we actually develop a targeting strategy for them and then create targeted offerings, and then once again serve them personalized experiences around that to get them to adopt that?" And that once again provided a better experience in what they were offering them, but also created, actually, revenue opportunities because they actually started building on and selling additional services for ACH and positive pay and other things once they actually shifted from just a retail-only use case into small business. So I just think about what are the use cases that really matter to the business or to the mission, and then work back from there.

Dallas Wells

A lot of what you were saying there seemed to have a lot of overlap with the conversation we just had with the Kirk Coleman episode a couple of weeks ago. And so he talked about the importance of knowing who you're trying to bank, knowing who your target is. The other thing that he mentioned that I think makes some sense there is the idea of materiality. There needs to be the ability for you to move the needle with this stuff. And where we run into this conversation a lot is as we think about things like digital account opening, and then the onboarding that follows after that, it's a difficult process. It's going to take some meaningful investment both in terms of just dollars for the technology and then also in the feed and care and maintenance of those tools. It's not just a flip the switch on and in come the deposits.

So what a lot of institutions see is they will turn this on and what they will get is a really ugly combination of a lot of fraud and then a lot of small-balance, high-overhead kind of accounts, that take a lot of hand holding and babysitting and they don't turn into a lot. I think what takes there for the institutions that we see do that really well is, again, who are you banking and is there some materiality there?

So one of the things that in looking like where to start, I think a good suggestion is what do you already do well? So we talked to an institution a few weeks ago, as they were running analysis on where have we had success, they found that one of their bankers was on the board of the local hospital and they just already, through that relationship, banked a bunch of the medical practices on the business side, and the personal accounts then of a whole bunch of doctors and nurses. And so they were like, well, what if we started this digital campaign around these sorts of practices? So now we have a pattern to look to, we know who, and we know what sorts of services they're asking for. We know that we can do that well. And so they would lean into that and that's one that it was clear, who are we banking? And that there would be some materiality, there's real business to show up.

So I think that's the magic combination. Yes, it's the digital tools, but it's also a very purposeful, intentional strategy behind it of know what you're after and then chase that, and then it's a little simpler to figure out how do we tweak the dials? How do we know if we're winning with this strategy or not? Versus just like, well, we turned it on, we don't know what to expect ... That's what we're really after with Q2 Engage, is think about those audiences, think about those outcomes you're after, and then let's shape the right experience and the right combination of experiences and solutions and products around that, so that you're really serving those things really well.

Carlos Carvajal

Well said. And then I like what you mentioned at the end, don't forget to measure and learn. That is a key tenet in marketing. A great quote, there is no failing, it's just learning, just constantly learn and constantly apply.

Dallas Wells

I think that's a really good place for us to wrap up there, Carlos, is I think that's a good framework to think through is to start there and just try some things, right? That's the magic of marketing, even in the banking and credit union universe where we get so risk averse and we don't want to make mistakes and take losses. Marketing, I think, is one of those areas where don't be afraid to try some things and then measure it, make adjustments and keep going, and you'll land on some winning tactics there as you go.

Carlos Carvajal

And I think to your point, building on what you do well, I think is an excellent idea. That's one of the things that if you expand, you're thinking beyond your traditional products and services as far as what you're offering your customers or your members, and there may be other products that you're not building that you could leverage through, once again, the partner ecosystem, right? You may have a machine that once you know that based on data, this audience over here could really use this service over here, then apply that engine or what you just said, what you do well to actually bring those together as far as how you target, and then you can leverage Engage to actually do that as far as serving them targeted experiences.

But frankly, sometimes it can go beyond the digital channel. If what works well is a hybrid strategy, which is leveraging marketing in your branches combined with a digital strategy and looking at it holistically, and all those kinds of things come into play.

Dallas Wells

Carlos, thanks for joining us. Appreciate you taking the time, and hopefully we can do this again soon.

Carlos Carvajal

Appreciate it, Dallas. Thank you, have a good one.

Dallas Wells

All right, and thanks everybody else for listening to this week's episode of The Purposeful Banker. If you want to catch more episodes, please subscribe to the show wherever you like to listen to podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and iHeartRadio. As always, we'd love to hear what you think in the comments and you can learn more about the company behind the content by visiting Q2.com. Until next time, this is Dallas Wells, and you've been listening to The Purposeful Banker.